Interview with International Lesbian and Gay Association's (ILGA) Secretary General (Kursat Kahramanoglu)
On this article you may read the interview KAOS GL did with Kursad Kahramanoglu who is the current Secretary General of International Lesbian and Gay Association's (ILGA).
KAOS: Please tell us about yourself
This is the question I always find most difficult. The best thing, if one curious, one can do is to look at www.ilga.org.[1] There is a short CV of me which I did not write however here are some stuff you will not find there: I am Turkish lived 27 years in UK. All this period has passed fighting one way or another some sort of discrimination and injustice, in fact even before back in Turkey, I was involved with left student politics in METU. I have an academic background, however I thought academic life boring, and moved to be a trade unionist, thinking that trade unions in a country like UK can be a vehicle for change. I am semi disappointed with this, because the leadership of trade unions even in a democratic country can be manipulated or not consistently progressive. I was elected to be the Secretary General of ILGA 1999 in South Africa and I still hold this post. I will not seek another term, because I now want some time for myself.
KAOS: What are the missions of ILGA and ILGA Europe?
ILGA Europe does not and cannot have another mission because it is the European Region of ILGA like ILGA Asia, ILGA LAC, etc. ILGA ‘s mission is to fight homophobia where ever it raises its ugly head.
The Aims and Objectives of ILGA are:
(i) To work for the equality of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people and liberation from all forms of discrimination;
(ii) To promote the universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the elimination of all forms of discrimination and also including the realisation of the specific provisions of the following international human rights instruments:
* The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights;
* The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights;
* The International Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Racial Discrimination;
* The Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination against Women;
* The Convention on the Rights of the Child
To work towards these goals, ILGA shall:
(i) create a platform for lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people internationally, in their quest for recognition, equality and liberation, in particular through the world and regional conferences;
(ii) work towards equal representation in all regions for lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people in our quest for recognition, equality and liberation;
(iii) give locally initiated and determined support for our organisations in all parts of the world;
(iv) collect information, conduct research, publish material and organise seminars, training, briefings and specialized conferences;
(v) offer facilities for co-ordination of activities and actions.
KAOS: The European Union accepted new members on May 2004. Did ILGA Europe have any influence to these countries (Cyprus, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Slovenia) to improve their status on GLBT rights?
Of course because ILGA has members in all those countries and ILGA Europe works very closely with EU. Lobbying is an important part of ILGA’s work and some of those countries had very backward laws discriminating against LGBT people and I am pleased to see that ILGA Europe had a considerable influence in changing many things for the better in many accession countries.
KAOS: What did ILGA Europe do regarding GLBT rights in Turkey?
Call me old fashioned but I prefer to use LGBT not “GLBT. In fact my automatic spelling accepts LGBT but not GLBT! This was an issue at the early days of the struggle here in UK, maybe people do not feel as strongly about it now a days but we prefer to mention lesbians before gay men, old habits die hard. I think you should ask this specific question to ILGA Europe if you want to tell your readers what ILGA Europe has done in Turkey. But I know very recently ILGA Europe specifically did the following in the context of accession countries to European Union: “The Council will take the decision in December 2004 on the accession of Turkey to the EU. Before this date, the Presidency is asked to ensure changes in the Turkish Penal Code in order to amend articles that discriminate against LGBT people”.
However ILGA has two member organisations in Turkey KAOS and Lambda and of course I personally try to follow all the developments in Turkey in LGBT issues. Indeed I ended up writing the Turkey Section of ILGA Europe’s report on the state of affairs on LGBT issues in the accession countries few years back because coordinator of this publication for ILGA Europe couldn’t find anybody to commission to write this report in Turkey! ILGA whole heartedly supported the first ever serious and very successful seminar on LGBT issues in Ankara May 2003 organised by KAOS.[2] I was there as well as some key politicians from European Union. And very recently I joined the four city training event of KAOS, to talk to human rights defenders. I was at the three cities Istanbul, Izmir and Diyarbakir with them.
KAOS: What do you think about the state of GLBT organising in Turkey?
There are now some courageous individuals who are doing excellent work in Turkey now a days. However it will be pretentious to talk about an LGBT movement in Turkey. Courageous individuals are one thing but I am a trade unionist and I believe in collective action to move the world. There is neither a single serious trans organisation or to the best of my knowledge a large group of trans people organising in any existing groups in Turkey. The level of the organising of lesbians is slightly better but again to the best of my knowledge there is not a single strong lesbian only organisation in Turkey. I always hope that two existing ILGA members are stronger too. Take Lambda for example, Istanbul is a metropolis of 12 million people, just one organisation and two dozen activists in it hardly points to a movement. What is worst is that other human rights organisations in my opinion, are not doing enough on the issue of discrimination on the grounds of sexuality.
I wouldn’t however like to give the impression that things are not developing in Turkey. KAOS, its centre, its magazine and activities for example are beacons of hope and when the history of LGBT movement in Turkey is written, KAOS will take its rightly deserved place. I also welcome the increased interest from academic world in Turkey for the struggle of LGBT people. Recent CETAD Conference in Turkey was a very positive step.[3]
KAOS: The European Union will decide by December 2004 whether or not to admit Turkey. As a prerequisite to EU admission, Turkey has some important strides towards fulfilling the Copenhagen criteria but do you think Turkey can be a nation which gives full rights to its GLBT citizens? And do you think aspiring to be a member of EU will have a positive impact on this matter?
I can tell you categorically that yes I think “Turkey can be a nation which gives full rights to its LGBT citizens.” I also think “aspiring to be a member of EU will have a positive impact on this matter”, however this is only possible if there is strong LGBT movement in Turkey. Because if there isn’t a strong voice of LGBT people, then firstly the other human rights organisations will not take up the plight of LGBT people seriously and secondly rights will be “given” to satisfy the European criteria so they will be minimum possible that Turkish Authorities can get away with. The experience in the new EU Countries show, stronger the voice of LGBT people in that country, better the improvements for LGBT people during the process of joining EU. This is precisely why I was very happy and immediately send a message of support and encouragement when I heard that LGBT activist are paying a visit to the Parliament in Ankara for the first time recently.[4]
KAOS: Although there were no laws that discriminate gays and lesbians in Turkey, there still is wide discrimination both on government and social level. European Union never pointed out this issue when they talk about Turkey fulfilling Copenhagen criteria. Why do you think the reason is?
Obviously the level of the rights of the minorities are relative. In other words things are better in most European Countries than in Turkey but things are better in Turkey compared to most Islamic Countries. So EU is not perfect and is not a panacea to all Turkey’s problems. It is not perfect because even though now EU accepts that LGBT rights are human rights, it can but not help itself to have some kind of a hierarchy of rights, and I am afraid LGBT rights are at the bottom. So many decision makers in EU look at Turkey and think that there are other human rights violations which deserve more attention than LGBT rights! So they are satisfied by highlighting other human rights abuses in Turkey and lump the rest by just saying “implementation of the laws passed and good will expressed is as important as the laws themselves”. This is precisely why LGBT rights should not be “given” because Turkey wants to be a member of EU, but they should be “taken” because LGBT people in Turkey demand them and Turkish Citizens deserve them!
KAOS: What is the Organization of the Islamic Conference’s (OIC) position regarding GLBT rights?
They are against them and their opposition is unprincipled. They have now for years opposed to it, working hand in hand with Vatican, at the UN feeling very comfortable that oppressing their own LGBT people back at home will face no opposition. What is also most interesting is that most Moslem Representatives I met at UN and Governmental level are ignorant when it comes to the issue of sexuality even though they are on the whole well educated people. They are unprincipled because they, at least as I observed at UN, lash out against LGBT rights to settle scores with the “west”. In fact it is sad to observe that often this well educated diplomats saying all sorts of nonsensical things which do not make sense because they recon attacking LGBT rights is attacking to “west” and hence scoring against the invasion of Iraq or it is standing up for Palestinian Rights!
KAOS: Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, a Turkish diplomat, was voted in as the next Secretary General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference during the meeting in Istanbul on June 2004. Do you predict a change in the policy of Organization of the Islamic Conference towards GLBT rights since Turkey is in charge, a country that is strictly secular and moderate country which is aspiring to be a member of European Union?
I do not know Mr. Ihsanoglu, however my contacts and observation of many Turkish Diplomats on international platforms lead me think that by and large members of Turkish Diplomatic Core are well educated and usually none prejudicial people. Hence I hope he can be reasoned with. I would love to have an opportunity at which I can sit down with him and members of ILGA Turkish Member Organisations and maybe also some serious human rights representatives from Turkey and some other Moslem Countries to discuss many issues with him. Another very good reason why we need strong LGBT organisations in Turkey.
KAOS: Whenever the issue arises as to whether ILGA, or any other gay rights organization to be accredited in United Nations, a Muslim country, usually in the name of the Islamic Conference, objected to accreditation. Correct me is I am wrong, but Turkey usually abstains on these meetings, why do you think Turkey holds a neutral position?
Turkey is a Moslem Country which is secular and has aspirations to join EU. It usually feels that the correct way to behave for Turkey is to be conspicuous by its absence when it feels that there is a clash by the above. I happen to think that Turkish Foreign Policy in this respect is wrong and does no favours to Turkey’s standing in the international community. This however has been because of the deliberate political choice by the various governments, including the present one, and not because of the incompetence of Turkish Diplomatic Core. I can give many examples how and why Turkey did itself no favours by having such cowardly stance on many moral issues of our day and what I think should be the approach but that is another interview.
KAOS: Thank you very much for sharing your time with us.
REFERENCES:
[1]ILGA'S WORLD BOARD, Kursad Kahramanoglu, Co - Secretary General, 14/03/2004
One of the best-known Turkish Human Rights activist in the world, elected for the first time as the secretary general of ILGA at the end of 1999 at ILGA’s Conference in South Africa, Kursad lives in London. Studied Industrial Engineering in Turkey and Philosophy in UK, Kursad wrote, lectured and campaigned for equal opportunities more than two decades. He led and actively participated in many local and national campaigns in UK against racism and homophobia.His involvement with trade unions and work as professional trade unionist makes him a rather unusual lgbt activist. He firmly believes full lgbt equality everywhere is just a matter of time.
[2]Problems of Gays and Lesbians and the Search for Solutions Towards Peace, May 23 2003 – May 24, 2003 http://www.kaosgl.com/sempozyum/english.html
[3]The Society for Sexual Education, Treatment and Research (CETAD) organises the “5th National Congress of Sexuality and Sexual Treatments”, May 24-26, 2004 at The Marmara Hotel, Istanbul.
[4]Representatives from the Gay Nongovernmental Organization Initiative visited Republican People's Party (CHP) deputy from Nigde Orhan Erarslan, who was a member of the sub-commission that has just concluded an assessment of the new Turkish Penal Law proposal. (May 24, 2004)
KAOS: Please tell us about yourself
This is the question I always find most difficult. The best thing, if one curious, one can do is to look at www.ilga.org.[1] There is a short CV of me which I did not write however here are some stuff you will not find there: I am Turkish lived 27 years in UK. All this period has passed fighting one way or another some sort of discrimination and injustice, in fact even before back in Turkey, I was involved with left student politics in METU. I have an academic background, however I thought academic life boring, and moved to be a trade unionist, thinking that trade unions in a country like UK can be a vehicle for change. I am semi disappointed with this, because the leadership of trade unions even in a democratic country can be manipulated or not consistently progressive. I was elected to be the Secretary General of ILGA 1999 in South Africa and I still hold this post. I will not seek another term, because I now want some time for myself.
KAOS: What are the missions of ILGA and ILGA Europe?
ILGA Europe does not and cannot have another mission because it is the European Region of ILGA like ILGA Asia, ILGA LAC, etc. ILGA ‘s mission is to fight homophobia where ever it raises its ugly head.
The Aims and Objectives of ILGA are:
(i) To work for the equality of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people and liberation from all forms of discrimination;
(ii) To promote the universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the elimination of all forms of discrimination and also including the realisation of the specific provisions of the following international human rights instruments:
* The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights;
* The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights;
* The International Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Racial Discrimination;
* The Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination against Women;
* The Convention on the Rights of the Child
To work towards these goals, ILGA shall:
(i) create a platform for lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people internationally, in their quest for recognition, equality and liberation, in particular through the world and regional conferences;
(ii) work towards equal representation in all regions for lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people in our quest for recognition, equality and liberation;
(iii) give locally initiated and determined support for our organisations in all parts of the world;
(iv) collect information, conduct research, publish material and organise seminars, training, briefings and specialized conferences;
(v) offer facilities for co-ordination of activities and actions.
KAOS: The European Union accepted new members on May 2004. Did ILGA Europe have any influence to these countries (Cyprus, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Slovenia) to improve their status on GLBT rights?
Of course because ILGA has members in all those countries and ILGA Europe works very closely with EU. Lobbying is an important part of ILGA’s work and some of those countries had very backward laws discriminating against LGBT people and I am pleased to see that ILGA Europe had a considerable influence in changing many things for the better in many accession countries.
KAOS: What did ILGA Europe do regarding GLBT rights in Turkey?
Call me old fashioned but I prefer to use LGBT not “GLBT. In fact my automatic spelling accepts LGBT but not GLBT! This was an issue at the early days of the struggle here in UK, maybe people do not feel as strongly about it now a days but we prefer to mention lesbians before gay men, old habits die hard. I think you should ask this specific question to ILGA Europe if you want to tell your readers what ILGA Europe has done in Turkey. But I know very recently ILGA Europe specifically did the following in the context of accession countries to European Union: “The Council will take the decision in December 2004 on the accession of Turkey to the EU. Before this date, the Presidency is asked to ensure changes in the Turkish Penal Code in order to amend articles that discriminate against LGBT people”.
However ILGA has two member organisations in Turkey KAOS and Lambda and of course I personally try to follow all the developments in Turkey in LGBT issues. Indeed I ended up writing the Turkey Section of ILGA Europe’s report on the state of affairs on LGBT issues in the accession countries few years back because coordinator of this publication for ILGA Europe couldn’t find anybody to commission to write this report in Turkey! ILGA whole heartedly supported the first ever serious and very successful seminar on LGBT issues in Ankara May 2003 organised by KAOS.[2] I was there as well as some key politicians from European Union. And very recently I joined the four city training event of KAOS, to talk to human rights defenders. I was at the three cities Istanbul, Izmir and Diyarbakir with them.
KAOS: What do you think about the state of GLBT organising in Turkey?
There are now some courageous individuals who are doing excellent work in Turkey now a days. However it will be pretentious to talk about an LGBT movement in Turkey. Courageous individuals are one thing but I am a trade unionist and I believe in collective action to move the world. There is neither a single serious trans organisation or to the best of my knowledge a large group of trans people organising in any existing groups in Turkey. The level of the organising of lesbians is slightly better but again to the best of my knowledge there is not a single strong lesbian only organisation in Turkey. I always hope that two existing ILGA members are stronger too. Take Lambda for example, Istanbul is a metropolis of 12 million people, just one organisation and two dozen activists in it hardly points to a movement. What is worst is that other human rights organisations in my opinion, are not doing enough on the issue of discrimination on the grounds of sexuality.
I wouldn’t however like to give the impression that things are not developing in Turkey. KAOS, its centre, its magazine and activities for example are beacons of hope and when the history of LGBT movement in Turkey is written, KAOS will take its rightly deserved place. I also welcome the increased interest from academic world in Turkey for the struggle of LGBT people. Recent CETAD Conference in Turkey was a very positive step.[3]
KAOS: The European Union will decide by December 2004 whether or not to admit Turkey. As a prerequisite to EU admission, Turkey has some important strides towards fulfilling the Copenhagen criteria but do you think Turkey can be a nation which gives full rights to its GLBT citizens? And do you think aspiring to be a member of EU will have a positive impact on this matter?
I can tell you categorically that yes I think “Turkey can be a nation which gives full rights to its LGBT citizens.” I also think “aspiring to be a member of EU will have a positive impact on this matter”, however this is only possible if there is strong LGBT movement in Turkey. Because if there isn’t a strong voice of LGBT people, then firstly the other human rights organisations will not take up the plight of LGBT people seriously and secondly rights will be “given” to satisfy the European criteria so they will be minimum possible that Turkish Authorities can get away with. The experience in the new EU Countries show, stronger the voice of LGBT people in that country, better the improvements for LGBT people during the process of joining EU. This is precisely why I was very happy and immediately send a message of support and encouragement when I heard that LGBT activist are paying a visit to the Parliament in Ankara for the first time recently.[4]
KAOS: Although there were no laws that discriminate gays and lesbians in Turkey, there still is wide discrimination both on government and social level. European Union never pointed out this issue when they talk about Turkey fulfilling Copenhagen criteria. Why do you think the reason is?
Obviously the level of the rights of the minorities are relative. In other words things are better in most European Countries than in Turkey but things are better in Turkey compared to most Islamic Countries. So EU is not perfect and is not a panacea to all Turkey’s problems. It is not perfect because even though now EU accepts that LGBT rights are human rights, it can but not help itself to have some kind of a hierarchy of rights, and I am afraid LGBT rights are at the bottom. So many decision makers in EU look at Turkey and think that there are other human rights violations which deserve more attention than LGBT rights! So they are satisfied by highlighting other human rights abuses in Turkey and lump the rest by just saying “implementation of the laws passed and good will expressed is as important as the laws themselves”. This is precisely why LGBT rights should not be “given” because Turkey wants to be a member of EU, but they should be “taken” because LGBT people in Turkey demand them and Turkish Citizens deserve them!
KAOS: What is the Organization of the Islamic Conference’s (OIC) position regarding GLBT rights?
They are against them and their opposition is unprincipled. They have now for years opposed to it, working hand in hand with Vatican, at the UN feeling very comfortable that oppressing their own LGBT people back at home will face no opposition. What is also most interesting is that most Moslem Representatives I met at UN and Governmental level are ignorant when it comes to the issue of sexuality even though they are on the whole well educated people. They are unprincipled because they, at least as I observed at UN, lash out against LGBT rights to settle scores with the “west”. In fact it is sad to observe that often this well educated diplomats saying all sorts of nonsensical things which do not make sense because they recon attacking LGBT rights is attacking to “west” and hence scoring against the invasion of Iraq or it is standing up for Palestinian Rights!
KAOS: Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, a Turkish diplomat, was voted in as the next Secretary General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference during the meeting in Istanbul on June 2004. Do you predict a change in the policy of Organization of the Islamic Conference towards GLBT rights since Turkey is in charge, a country that is strictly secular and moderate country which is aspiring to be a member of European Union?
I do not know Mr. Ihsanoglu, however my contacts and observation of many Turkish Diplomats on international platforms lead me think that by and large members of Turkish Diplomatic Core are well educated and usually none prejudicial people. Hence I hope he can be reasoned with. I would love to have an opportunity at which I can sit down with him and members of ILGA Turkish Member Organisations and maybe also some serious human rights representatives from Turkey and some other Moslem Countries to discuss many issues with him. Another very good reason why we need strong LGBT organisations in Turkey.
KAOS: Whenever the issue arises as to whether ILGA, or any other gay rights organization to be accredited in United Nations, a Muslim country, usually in the name of the Islamic Conference, objected to accreditation. Correct me is I am wrong, but Turkey usually abstains on these meetings, why do you think Turkey holds a neutral position?
Turkey is a Moslem Country which is secular and has aspirations to join EU. It usually feels that the correct way to behave for Turkey is to be conspicuous by its absence when it feels that there is a clash by the above. I happen to think that Turkish Foreign Policy in this respect is wrong and does no favours to Turkey’s standing in the international community. This however has been because of the deliberate political choice by the various governments, including the present one, and not because of the incompetence of Turkish Diplomatic Core. I can give many examples how and why Turkey did itself no favours by having such cowardly stance on many moral issues of our day and what I think should be the approach but that is another interview.
KAOS: Thank you very much for sharing your time with us.
REFERENCES:
[1]ILGA'S WORLD BOARD, Kursad Kahramanoglu, Co - Secretary General, 14/03/2004
One of the best-known Turkish Human Rights activist in the world, elected for the first time as the secretary general of ILGA at the end of 1999 at ILGA’s Conference in South Africa, Kursad lives in London. Studied Industrial Engineering in Turkey and Philosophy in UK, Kursad wrote, lectured and campaigned for equal opportunities more than two decades. He led and actively participated in many local and national campaigns in UK against racism and homophobia.His involvement with trade unions and work as professional trade unionist makes him a rather unusual lgbt activist. He firmly believes full lgbt equality everywhere is just a matter of time.
[2]Problems of Gays and Lesbians and the Search for Solutions Towards Peace, May 23 2003 – May 24, 2003 http://www.kaosgl.com/sempozyum/english.html
[3]The Society for Sexual Education, Treatment and Research (CETAD) organises the “5th National Congress of Sexuality and Sexual Treatments”, May 24-26, 2004 at The Marmara Hotel, Istanbul.
[4]Representatives from the Gay Nongovernmental Organization Initiative visited Republican People's Party (CHP) deputy from Nigde Orhan Erarslan, who was a member of the sub-commission that has just concluded an assessment of the new Turkish Penal Law proposal. (May 24, 2004)
